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[Yosemite]

Is this itinerary legal for our wilderness permit?

Hiking, backpacking, running, biking, climbing, rafting, and other human-powered activities in Yosemite National Park

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Is this itinerary legal for our wilderness permit?

Postby half dumb » Thu Apr 16, 2015 5:35 pm

Planned out a 5-day/4-night path that looks awesome. We got a wilderness permit that leaves from the Sunrise Lakes Trailhead and includes the half dome option. What we would like to do is:

Day 1: Hike from the Sunrise Lakes trailhead to May Lake, and do a trip up Mt. Hoffmann. Then continue along the trail BEYOND May Lake and camp at Raisin Lake (between May Lake and Polly Lakes). This is beyond the minimal distance to camp from the May Lakes trailhead. However, I am not sure if we are allowed to hike toward May Lake with a Sunrise Lakes Trailhead permit. If needed, we could "cross" Tioga Road instead of walking along it if that makes a difference.

Day 2: Hike up by Polly Lakes and then down Murphy Creek back to Tenaya Lake and the Sunrise Lakes Trailhead. Then continue on to Sunrise Lakes and camp there.

Day 3: Hike over Clouds Rest and camp along Sunrise Creek.

Day 4: Hike Half Dome, then return and camp along Sunrise Creek again

Day 5: Hike down the Mist Trail and exit the Happy Isles Trailhead.


My only questions about the legality of our plan has to do with the first couple of days. Specifically, are we allowed to hike past May Lake and camp at Raisin Lake on the first night with a Sunrise Lakes Trailhead permit? The permit we got does not indicate that we have to spend our first night at Sunrise Lakes. Second, when we return to Tenaya Lake and start again on the Sunrise Lakes Trailhead and continue on to Sunrise Lake, can we still do that under the same permit or are we technically supposed to have a second permit since we basically return to the parking lot and trailhead again? Thanks for any help you can provide. I'd like to be confident we are abiding by the rules if a ranger checks our permits.
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Re: Is this itinerary legal for our wilderness permit?

Postby Grzldvt » Thu Apr 16, 2015 7:44 pm

Should not be a problem at all. You are starting at that trailhead but it does not mean you have to go to Sunrise lakes. I have come into May Lake the "back" way many times.
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Re: Is this itinerary legal for our wilderness permit?

Postby MadDiver » Sat Apr 18, 2015 9:13 am

Why don't you just get May Lake permit and not worry about it?
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Re: Is this itinerary legal for our wilderness permit?

Postby AlmostThere » Sat Apr 18, 2015 9:38 am

People who get a permit and then change their minds, or want a trailhead that's booked up and don't want to do a walk in, will often want to use a permit they already have for a different trailhead.

IMO, it puts you at risk of a ranger calling you on it. One ranger will interpret the rules a little different than another. Yosemite has a huge number of wilderness rangers - I see one every trip, almost, especially on the very popular trails. I would be wary of being caught on a trail heading the opposite direction the permit claims I am going to go, because that could easily be construed as having no permit at all - essentially what you are doing, if you can't prove you started at the trailhead you were issued the permit for. The quotas are the one thing (other than having no bear can, letting a bear get food, or having no permit at all) that the rangers will absolutely enforce, and if it looks like you got a permit for one trailhead, and started at another, that's what they are likely to call it. Simply because people are doing it all the time because the permit system is so hammered by people from all over the world trying to get permits. If the May trailhead were across the road from Sunrise, that would be one thing - but it's not. And even if you walked up the road instead of driving - the road is not the wilderness. You can cross the road to continue on a trail. Walking, hitching, driving, along a road constitutes leaving the wilderness. Once you exit wilderness you technically need another permit to re-enter. Are you going to hike on trails from Sunrise to May Lake? that's different. But, you would still not be hiking from the Sunrise trailhead - it would be from the *trailhead across the road* which is not going to have the name "Sunrise". Trailheads are along roads which are not wilderness areas, to allow them to issue permits and have quotas for how many people enter the wilderness and where - if you just bushwhack up the hill opposite the Sunrise trailhead I am guessing the ranger will call it out of bounds.

I'd just get a permit for May Lakes or do the route specified on a permit. It's not really worth chancing that some ranger will end the outing by walking you out of the wilderness, instructing you to leave the park, and handing you the fine for having no viable permit. Even if you are within the bounds of the regulation, if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, the ranger is quite likely to call it a duck.

You could always call the wilderness office and put the question to them. I get a different answer from people on the phone than I do from wilderness rangers, tho. No consistency whatsoever. But something tells me the answer won't be what you want to hear either way.
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Re: Is this itinerary legal for our wilderness permit?

Postby Grzldvt » Thu Apr 23, 2015 9:16 pm

Let's a get a little grip here. I have used, this trailhead to go to May Lake at the advice of one the strictest rangers I have ever run into. This guy was a total pain in the A$$ to deal with. It was one of those..where we had to answer very basic questions and one wrong answer you were out... really dude, you can see my name in the compudder, see how many thousands of permits I have gotten, my website for bear canisters is linked to the Yosemite Association and you are still making me do the basic questions as a pass or fail. I have hiked both the trail down below and the road , saw rangers driving by that have stopped to make sure we were permitted and those that drove by with a wave and it was no big deal as long as I had a permit from a reasonable trailhead..
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Re: Is this itinerary legal for our wilderness permit?

Postby AlmostThere » Thu Apr 23, 2015 9:18 pm

I have plenty of grip. Have seen people marched out of the wilderness with dogs, no bear can, no permit... A friend of mine was fined and then the ranger walked him all the way out for three days to make sure he left the wilderness.

Just because it doesn't happen to you, doesn't mean you get the same ranger next time.

I was checked THREE TIMES on the way to Rancheria Falls. Three rangers, three quizzes, eight miles.
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Re: Is this itinerary legal for our wilderness permit?

Postby Dave_Ayers » Mon Apr 27, 2015 9:43 am

Take a look at the Yosemite trailhead map at http://www.nps.gov/yose/planyourvisit/u ... lheads.pdf . You can see the arrow from the Sunrise TH (19) is away from May Lake so you're not supposed to head that way for the 1st night on a Sunrise permit. You need a May Lake permit (17) which has the arrow towards where you will camp the 1st night, even if you start hiking from Sunrise or the Shuttle stop between Olmsted Point and Sunrise.

Generally speaking, permit TH's are governed more by where you camp the first night than where you actually start hiking.
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Re: Is this itinerary legal for our wilderness permit?

Postby half dumb » Mon Apr 27, 2015 12:33 pm

Thanks for all the advice everyone. As for why we don't just get a May Lakes permit... as you can see our itinerary includes Half Dome. We were lucky to get this option included with our original permit. If we reapply for a May Lakes trailhead permit now we are pretty much guaranteed that we won't get the Half Dome option this late into the year.

The reason is I asked if this was legal is because I have read through a lot of posts on this forum and I keep seeing people mention rules that I can't seem to find listed anywhere on the website. I feel I have done my due diligence and scoured every single page on the Yosemite website, through all of the various Wilderness permit and trailhead pages. I can't find anywhere that states the following rules I have seen mentioned here:

1) If you walk along a road, you have left the wilderness and need a new permit. Of course it makes sense that you cant get in your car and drive between trailheads. But if your hiking path reasonably takes you along a road for a while (hiking) I don't see anywhere that says you need a second permit. AlmostThere, you stated " Walking, hitching, driving, along a road constitutes leaving the wilderness." Where on the website or the regulations does it state this?

2) You have to hike in the direction of the arrow on the trailheads map. Or even more specifically, that you must spend your first night camping at a certain location. The website says this:
The trailhead quota system limits use based on where you begin your hike, and in some cases, on where you camp the first night of your trip. After the first night, you may camp wherever you can hike to within the wilderness.Since there are only a few designated campgrounds, you can camp anywhere you like, provided you follow all the regulations. The exceptions are near the five High Sierra Camps and in the Little Yosemite Valley area, where you must you camp at the designated campgrounds.
Our Sunrise Lakes Trailhead permit does NOT specify a required camping location for the first night.


Per all of the rules and regulations listed on the Yosemite website, we are within the rules. But I have heard here (and other places) additional rules which are not listed. However, if a Ranger stops us how is it fair to punish us for something that is not listed anywhere in the regulations? We will have a wilderness permit for the number of people and days we will be in the wilderness, we will have our bear cans and all of the other various requirements. We are not out here to make trouble or flagrantly violate the rules. In fact, the May Lakes trailhead still has many spots available for those days (and Sunrise Lakes TH is full) so if anything we are going to be spreading out the hikers, not overcrowding anyone. Again, the only reason we dont want to switch our permits at this point is to risk losing our Half Dome option.
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Re: Is this itinerary legal for our wilderness permit?

Postby bill-e-g » Mon Apr 27, 2015 1:32 pm

When you get to the wilderness office to pick up your permit simply tell the
ranger what you plan on doing. More than likely they will simply give you a
permit with May Lake TH start on it and everything else will be just fine and dandy.
For a number of years they have been asking where you are spending your
first night... and Sunrise TH w/ a first night at Raisin is a bit off.
But... just don't worry. Just explain what you want to do and more than likely
you will have no issue when you get there.
I believe that you could simply call the wilderness office and try to get the start
TH changed right now. I could be wrong about that. But worth a call.

Sorry if I didn't help
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