Using GPS/Smart phones for nav

[rick56]

I don't own a smart phone or GPS. I'm an old Army grunt well versed land navigation. I have the Nat Geo map and a cheap compass. But I am considering getting a phone/gps..I love gadgets. I have looked at the Garmin H for $80. And I can't believe people will lay down $500 for a GPS? I guess when your in the middle of the Yosemite backcountry you need to locate a good Italian joint. LOL What kinds of phones do you use? Do you use a smart phone? Many where I work have them. My older brother got an Apple I phone. I've heard of the Driod and others. In your honest opinion what is the best smart phone to use for navigation in the backcountry. What about reception? I know GPS is different from cellular. I have a T-mobile pay as you go, but it got no signal at Ice House reservior. I rode up to a cell tower and literally stood under it. It was a Verizon or AT&T tower, silly me. What do you folks use in Yosemite? A smart phone or stand alone GPS, map and compass? I'm just thinking maybe its time I move into the 21st century and keep my paper map and $3 compass as a backup. I also read somewhere on here were people used a smart phone or similar device as a kindle or to watch movies at night in thier tents? Thats cool as hell. Thanks and see you in Yosemite

[AlmostThere]

I know how to use both.

The map's faster, and doesn't require batteries. Gimme an interpolator and I'll kick you a UTM coordinate in no time. Map weighs less. If I drop it the map still works.

If I got a GPS for myself I would not get a cheap one - if I"m going to carry another pound and a half (gps plus batteries) it better have barometer, altimeter, ability to store multiple track logs, ability to calibrate, compass, a complete set of maps, a color screen, and configurable to the nth degree... AND I would need to have a lot of off trail trips scheduled to justify it.

If you're always on the trail, maps are great.

[LVRAY]

You obviously do not like GPS units - bully for you. But your statements are way over the top to the point of being silly & meaningless. At least provide meaningful information and do not make stupid statements like they weight a pound and a half. GPS units with batteries can weigth 5 to 7 onces.. There are things you can do with a GPS that you cannot come close to doing with a topo map & compass. It is simply a tool like any other that has its pros & cons.

[AlmostThere]

Maybe I should be clearer...

I use a GPS all the time. I caution people because they are not useful until you know how to read a topographic map. In running a class I discover that people buy GPS units and never bother to load a map set, so essentially spend money for a battery operated compass. People get that they are supposed to be for navigation. Actually doing the navigating part, well, they don't get that so well. I wonder if they think it will be easier than the compass? That would be an easy assumption to make...

Take a class in topo maps, take a GPS class, don't rely on the GPS exclusively or you potentially end up like the fellows who were cliffed out and had to be longlined off a ledge by helicopter after following the GPS right into being SAR subjects. Get stuck in a blizzard and think, oh, we'll just backtrack to the truck. You need to think about what the limitations are before you just go do. The GPS isn't going to take the place of being able to stay calm and look where you are going.

I have no feelings whatsoever about GPS units. They are a toy unless you have some actual use for them. If you want to navigate properly in the wilderness, it's a nice tool, but it's not going to be much use until you actually know how to navigate, what the limitations of the device are, and why you want one.

[rick56]

Thanks to both of you for replying. I'll have to agree with LVRAY, a modern gps unit only weighs about 5 ozs. Almost there you may be referring to the old military plugger units. I used one at Ft Lewis before deploying with my Army unit to the Middle East. It is the size of an old cassette tape recorder and heavy. I don't think you could even get one at a surplus store? And why would you when a Garmin is small, light, and easier to use. It was not my intent to start an argument, I simply want to hear what folks use in the park. I'm well trained in map and compass, in fact all US military are required to learn land nav. We train to plot down to 10 digit coordinates on milspec maps. I came across the term UTM on the site for Backpacker mag. As far as I can tell it looks alot like the military's 8 or 10 digit method? Although it does require a plastic guage to lay on your map, and of course you need a map designed for military use with 1000 meter grids. Now for the sake of discussion, not argument please. Maps have been around for years and a good map and compass can get you there. I can think of a few places where a map would not help me as much as a GPS unit. In the middle of the desert with no visible landmarks, in fact our PX in Kuwait sold all the GPS units out to soldiers heading to Iraq and Afganistan. Two other places where I would prefer GPS are in the artic and at sea. Sure if its clear you can use celestial navigation, but when its a white out what then? Answer, GPS. Now I love gadgets, but I can't see forking out $500 for a top line Garmin or similar. I also don't plan on going off the trails in Yosemite, so my Nat Geo map and $3.00 compass should be fine. But if I need to change course off the trails or want to do Geocaching then a GPS is what I'd use. Garmin has two, one for around $80. the other $130. I may still get one of those but I may not be able to hike enough to make it worth the price. So I may try to find one used on Ebay. I'm 54 and a soldier who has instructed others in navigation. I respect the traditional map and compass skills and for price its a great way to go. But I also am open minded to technology, and I confess I'm kink of a geek at heart. So GPS units recieving sattlelite signals from geosycronous orbit is cool as hell to me. In fact I believe most search and rescue teams use them now days. Also they are used by pros to plot hard to find historic sites and maps although good are basically obsolete within a few years due to natural forces. Don't believe that? Then why the census every 10 years? To plot new delvelopements on a map. Thanks again and wether you use a map or GPS I hope you arrive safely and have fun.

[AlmostThere]

Sounds like you are well grounded in what you need to go.

You will want to change the GPS to match the map you use - there are many different map standards. It sounds like you are using UTM - there is a military version and the version most maps like the Tom Harrison brand will use. Is this what you're familiar with?
http://egsc.usgs.gov/isb/pubs/factsheets/fs07701.html


Be on the lookout when you are getting maps - a lot of the ones you find at the forest service offices are WGS84, most commercial maps will be NAD27 CONUS. Matching up your GPS with the map will ensure you don't follow the GPS and end up half a mile from somewhere you want to be. And the USGS grids with lat/long will usually also have blue tick marks down the sides - so it's possible to get one and then make your own UTM grid, write in the easting and northing coordinate guides along the edges, and have a perfectly serviceable map for navigating via UTM.

A friend of mine bought a Garmin and the GPS was set to some Estonian map system... not helpful when the coordinate does not read at all like UTM.

I use a Garmin 60GCSx - if you are a total geek this would be the feature set to get. They do retail for 500 but can be had at REI or Cabelas for 200 - I suspect there is a new model on the horizon and the price may even drop further. We use them because they are durable and reliably connect to the satellites. There's a jack for an external antenna and it will take an SD card to store a lot of data.

It weighs 7.5 oz, and I carry a lot of batteries for it - because when we are doing search and rescue you do not want the unit to fail and we are potentially in the field for more than two days. The dog teams use the Rhyno because they not only have all the features of the 60CSX, they see other units on the team and display the locations of other GPS units in relation to your location on the screen.

For leisure hiking I know that I can always whip out the map and interpolater, so don't care if the batteries fail. Usually only take one extra set. I will be switching to lithium soon, I think, since those last longer and are more resistant to the cold.

[oakroscoe]

Alright, I had to chime in here. First let me address the phone issue. I have an Iphone 3Gs on AT&T and it would be worthless in the backcountry as a GPS because it gets no reception past Groveland. If I was coming out of Cherry Creek through the green crap the last 1/2 mile to try and find my truck it would be worthless. However, my Garmin 76CSX is worth its weight in gold (which is a scant 7.7 ounces, well you can round up to 9 ounces with the case) to find your way back to waypoint that you marked. To answer your question, the best phone to use in the backcountry as a GPS is none. In Yosemite and the surrounding areas (The Emigrant) your reception is practically nil. If you have Verizon you can occasionally get reception if you stand in the right area on top of the right ridge and hold the phone just right. But not anything you can count on.

On the flip side, I really dont like using the Garmin for city street navigating. I find that my iphone is actually much easier to use for that. Combine that with an app that can tell me where the closest bar/gas station/back/restaurant is, it really is invaluable in cities where you are unfamiliar with. But the Garmin I have isn't designed for that, its primarily meant for being on the ocean or in the backcountry.

Again, as we all agree a GPS is no substitute for a good 7.5 topo for your area. Anything electronic is subject to Murphy's law, and you need to have a map. And I don't carry the GPS all the time either. If I'm going to a place that I've been to before, or if I'm not going to do any crazy cross country, I probably won't toss it in my pack. Thats 9 ounces of whiskey I could take instead. If I decide to go to Ten Lakes, I won't waste the weight on it. A blind man could follow that highway of a trail.

As for what GPS unit I have, its the Garmin 76CSx. I went with that because it was designed for marine use, so I don't have to worry about rain or getting it wet, and I have used it in some pretty foul conditions. When I bought the 76Csx back in 08, it was over $300, but now its like $230 on amazon and the 60Csx is $215. You can get a Garmin eTrex (their entry level) for close to a $100 now. One downside is that Garmin will screw you on the maps. When you buy the the GPS you get the unit and a basic map set. But if you want topo maps you have to buy those as well, which when I got it back in 08 was close to a $100. However, if you are tech savvy and have a moral flexibility, you can get the maps off of a torrent site. That's a personal decision for each consumer, and I'll leave it at that.

As for the accuracy of the GPS maps, they are generally pretty good. Although the detail is not as good as a 7.5 topo map, but its decent. I went cross country from Flora Lake to Boundary and there were a couple small to medium sized lakes that weren't on the GPS. But on the flip side, they weren't on the 7.5 topo either. It is some of the least visited parts of the park. Out of the last 3 years, I can only remember two or three times at the most that I couldnt get signal, or had any other issue. Battery life is good. My typical backpacking trip is 4 days (my work schedule is 4 on then 4 off, so unless I trade shifts, take vacation or call in sick, I'm out 4 then back to work) and one set of batteries usually lasts me all 4 days.

As for your comment being an old army grunt, let me say I work with a lot of old timers that are former army, air force and marines. And literally 9 out of 10 of them have gotten an iphone (or in the odd case a droid) and absolutely love it. Easy to use and quickly becomes indispensable.

And finally, as for devices, the kindle talk you mentioned was me. I bought one about 3 months ago, it is awesome. I couldn't be happier with it. Battery life is 3 weeks at the last, so I don't worry about charging it in the backcountry. The paperbacks I used to carry weigh more than it does, as its only 8.5 ounces. My main buddy that I go backpacking with checked it out 2 trips back and the first purchase he made when he got back to his place was to go on amazon and buy one for him and one for his wife. And this is a guy who when i first met him didnt even own a computer. My generation grew up with computers in the classroom, so its second nature to me.

The other device I carry is an ipod touch classic 160gig. I've stuck with the classic for battery life. I get 40 hours on audio. If I watch movies or tv shows I get 6-8 hours off a single charge. Its only 5 ounces. I also carry a battery that will charge it up two to three times that weighs 2.5 ounces. For reference, my ipod only weighs 2 ounces more than a deck of cards. So in other words, for right at a pound I can have a couple hundred books, dozens of movies, every episode of seinfeld and a couple thousand of songs that I can read, watch or listen to as much as I want. I go pretty light, but thats a pound that I am willing to carry. When I've been caught in rain for a day or two, I have been exceedingly happy that I had the ipod.

Oh and one last point, before you go buy a GPS, maybe you can take one out for a test drive to see if you like it. REI or other stores would probably rent one out (they rent everything else out). See if you like it before you make a big purchase.

Anyways, my apologies for the long long post. Hah, if you could make it all the way through it and had any questions, feel free to ask.

[bill-e-g]

Oak,
You got me again.
I just want to say that the detail on the GPS is the same as a 7.5 map.
I have Garmin eTrex Vista HCx and love it.
The "24K West" and "US Topo National Parks 24K" are both 7.5 and
have basically the same detail as USGS maps.
As for a phone GPS, they can be pretty darn great. The detail you
can get is what you see on mytopo.com. Pretty snazzy.
Since it has a GPS chip it certainly doesn't need cell coverage.
The issue is battery life. If you want to have it on all the time on
a multi-day trip ... good luck.
I've seen a Droid in action and it works beautifully.
As for batts, I can't recommend enough a set of Sanyo Eneloop.
They will save you a pretty penny. What I do is go fully charged
and bring a set of Liths for backup. Last year I MAYBE went thru
one set of Lithiums. I use them in winter too, no problem, so
take that out of your equation.
For enjoyment at night I've been using an Archos video player for years.
Love it. TV on the go.
I'll have to take a look at Kindle for the wife. She usually just brings
a paperback though and prob. would say she doesn't want Kindle.
Anyway, Have fun out there

[rick56]

Almost-there, yes the UTM looks very much like what I use in our military maps. In 2008 I went to Utah for school and part of the course was passing land nav. I can read map and compass, but I also use old line of sight or landmarks, then I shoot an azmuth and off I go. The only time I had trouble was when I had to zig zag around brush and missed one point, but I got three out of four to pass. I just got an REI membership so I think I'll rent a nice GPS for our trip in June. Man all the TV shows, music and movies?? What about snuggling with yer honey under the stars and listening to natures song? Don't get me wrong, I have a Creative Micro Zen 5GB but the battery does not last long and for its size its heavy. I use it car camping but I guess if I was going out for a week a I-pod and kindle would be fun. I did read on some backpacking reviews that smart phones are much better in the city and not too good in the wild. Back in the 70s the only thing some of us brought was a small radio.
Last question, anyone ever carry a small two way 20 channel incase someone needs help out there? I have a pair of Cobras and I was thinking of packing one just in case someone gets hurt. I was going to ask a ranger what channels they monitor? Anyone have rescue stories? Thanks for all the good advice especially about renting a GPS at REI. I did not know they rented them.

PS I called two local REI stores, Roseville and Sacramento, neither one rents GPS units.

[cjoz]

Oak,
Since it has a GPS chip it certainly doesn't need cell coverage.

Important point some people overlook is if you're out of your data coverage area, you also need to have the map pre-loaded on the phone or else you just see a blue dot on a grey screen.

There are some iPhone apps that let you cache Google maps and various topo maps. I have the Harrison JMT Maps on my 4G and it will show GPS location on map.

[oakroscoe]

My apologies on the iphone/smartphone. I should have realized that you could work off GPS, but you will definitely need to get the maps, otherwise you are SOL. That was bad information on my part. I still think that it wouldn't be wise to depend upon in the backcountry due to the short battery life. However, for street travel it is typically very good.


Thanks to everyone for setting me right!

And rick, I was wrong about REI. I checked with Concord this week when I picked up some packages and I was told they didnt rent them either. I'm just giving out all sorts of bad info this week....My apologies again.