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[Yosemite]

Petition To Change Back To Pre-Covid Walk-in Permit System

Hiking, backpacking, running, biking, climbing, rafting, and other human-powered activities in the Sierra Nevada and elsewhere outside Yosemite National Park

Moderators: Wickett, dan

Petition To Change Back To Pre-Covid Walk-in Permit System

Postby Maverick02 » Mon Feb 15, 2021 12:13 pm

Have requested Mods to send this out to members by PM, but some of you may miss that, so just in case you do.

Please sign, the more signatures we get, the better chance we have to get these agencies to consider our request! Thank you!

http://chng.it/NcyLzS2yGS
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Re: Petition To Change Back To Pre-Covid Walk-in Permit Syst

Postby balzaccom » Wed Feb 24, 2021 9:33 pm

Yep--I signed this via another board. Highly recommended. Thanks for sharing it here, Mav.
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Re: Petition To Change Back To Pre-Covid Walk-in Permit Syst

Postby AlmostThere » Thu Feb 25, 2021 8:17 am

Are we going to get to the heart of the matter - reinstating monies taken away from the national land agencies by Congress, so they can actually afford to implement things to restore public access? No money no fun. Ask yourself why there has to be nonprofit conservancies renting bear cans and giving out permits... nonprofit trail crews taking all the risks to open trails...

Good luck getting a kiosk anywhere without some nonprofit group raising funds and writing grants. It's how a whole bunch of other stuff gets done. There are programs on the National Forests that are funded by the state.
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Re: Petition To Change Back To Pre-Covid Walk-in Permit Syst

Postby AlmostThere » Tue Mar 09, 2021 12:42 pm

Just reserved a permit for Sierra National Forest.

I like the new system. You can get a refund if you cancel 12 or more days prior to your trip. Thus releasing permits for last minute backpackers! Awesome! Always been a pet peeve of mine that they don't re-use unclaimed permits - finally a mechanism to incentivize those late cancellers to GIVE THE PERMIT BACK.
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Re: Petition To Change Back To Pre-Covid Walk-in Permit Syst

Postby balzaccom » Tue Mar 09, 2021 12:47 pm

Agreed. Far too often we have been in campgrounds that were "fully reserved" and yet 1/3 empty, simply because people made the reservation, changed their plans, and never let anyone know. Meanwhile, perfectly good campsites sit unused, and frustrated campers are stuck at home. Sounds like they are making an effort, at least, with these permits!

I used to coach an adult soccer team, and we had a great system for paying me. Each team member paid $200 at that the start of the season, and got back $5 every time they attended a practice. So if everyone attended every practice, I got paid little more than minimum wage. But since they didn't attend, I got paid a lot more, which made it a lot easier to deal with the frustrations of players not showing up...
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Re: Petition To Change Back To Pre-Covid Walk-in Permit Syst

Postby snowcreek » Fri Apr 09, 2021 5:22 pm

Good day

The majority of the trail work done in Yosemite is done by NPS workers. The amount of work done by the CCC and other such groups is quite minimal and in my opinion is a waste of govt resources. Not sure where the idea came from that the NPS is somehow reliant on not for profit groups. The NPS would do just fine without their parasitic presence. In many cases- the not for profits are actually harming the real NPS workers doing the majority of the hard worker. I would get upset seeing how much Yosemite money went to things like REI orginized for profit "trail work" trips...
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Re: Petition To Change Back To Pre-Covid Walk-in Permit Syst

Postby balzaccom » Fri Apr 09, 2021 5:51 pm

Snowcreek, I don't know where you get your information, but the Yosemite Conservancy provides a budget (and some volunteer labor) for trail maintenance...and the budget is well over ten million dollars per year. That is not a drop in the bucket--it is a significant contribution to the Park's trail maintenance program. And that is spent in Yosemite National Park alone.

Note the the big spending bill passed in July of 2020 included 9.5 BILLION dollars for the NPS...long overdue, and not enough to solve all the problems, but a major step towards addressing many of the infrastructure needs of our parks---estimated budget for all of this is probably closer to $15B....but 9.5B is a nice step forward
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Re: Petition To Change Back To Pre-Covid Walk-in Permit Syst

Postby AlmostThere » Fri Apr 09, 2021 6:02 pm

Maybe the idea that volunteers and nonprofits do a lot of trail work comes from... actual volunteers. Who do trail work.

Come on, man.
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Re: Petition To Change Back To Pre-Covid Walk-in Permit Syst

Postby snowcreek » Fri Apr 09, 2021 6:07 pm

the MAJORITY of the WORK done by the trail crews is done by NPS trail workers. I would know- I spent years working in the valley for the NPS... not for profits help fund seasonal workers.. Their is a vast difference between being a trail worker and donating money to the park for trail work.
This is why I posted- to counter the misinformation being presented. The not for profit crews like the CCC and YCC do little actual trail work. The CCC do the most- and they work hard- but they also work to steal jobs and funding- from said not for profits- to do actual trail work. Much of the funding that gets directed to volunteer crews is wasted and would be far better spent on actual workers doing actual work.
And I have never heard of any Yosemite conservatory trail workers..
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Re: Petition To Change Back To Pre-Covid Walk-in Permit Syst

Postby balzaccom » Sat Apr 10, 2021 7:07 am

snowcreek wrote:Good day

snowcreek wrote:And I have never heard of any Yosemite conservatory trail workers..
Not sure where the idea came from that the NPS is somehow reliant on not for profit groups. The NPS would do just fine without their parasitic presence. In many cases- the not for profits are actually harming the real NPS workers doing the majority of the hard worker. I would get upset seeing how much Yosemite money went to things like REI orginized for profit "trail work" trips...


First of all, It the Yosemite Conservancy, not conservatory. And the funds they raise (again, over $10M per year) go primarily to trail work and habitat restoration. Some of it is done by NPS employees, some of it by volunteers. I'm not sure where you think park money goes to fund any REI trail crew? Every volunteer trail work crew I've ever worked required the volunteers to pay for everything (including all food and transportation) except the actual materials--and there were damn few of those. The work was done with mattocks, shovels, pry bars, saws and loppers. Nobody got paid a cent except the supervising ranger.

Sounds like you are angry about something, but I have never met a ranger in Yosemite who didn't think that the Conservancy plays a vital role in the park's maintenance. It's sad that it's necessary, but maybe the new 2020 spending bill will alleviate some of that. And I was wrong--it's actually $12B for deferred maintenance projects, not $9.5 billion.
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Re: Petition To Change Back To Pre-Covid Walk-in Permit Syst

Postby snowcreek » Sat Apr 10, 2021 8:23 am

It used to be nature bridge... The name means little.. Its just another not for profit wasting the NPS time with grant money they got from the fed govt anyway... Mostly those not for profits provide "Jobs" for the chosen few..
And as for REI "trail crews" the tools they use are all govt funded.. And the safety equipment they use- are all govt funded. The supervisors- are all govt employee's who waste a day babysitting adults who pretend they are somehow helping- they are not. The REI program was a waste of NPS money.
It seems the public has a misunderstanding about who does the actual work in the park service vs who you want to think does the work. The majority of the funding that the Yosemite Conervancy gives out goes to the CCC and not the NPS. And the NPS wastes more money on the CCC than they get back in actual work. In fact the NPS wastes more money dealing with not for profits and volunteer groups than they would if they actually funded the govt trail crews who do the vast majority of the work
Its amazing that when an NPS trail worker tells you how things actually are you deflect and pretend you know more than me.
It reminds me of babysitting the REI "trail crew" at happy isles as they wasted our day pretending to be helpful
Most of the info on this forum is nor correct.
And with the replys to my factual comments- its not surprising
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Re: Petition To Change Back To Pre-Covid Walk-in Permit Syst

Postby balzaccom » Sat Apr 10, 2021 8:44 am

Your "facts" are opinions, and what you take as fact is incorrect.

snowcreek wrote:It used to be nature bridge... The name means little.. Its just another not for profit wasting the NPS time with grant money they got from the fed govt anyway


None of the Yosemite Conservancy funds come from the government. The vast majority comes from private donors, with additional corporate donors providing much of the rest. The total in 2019 was about $15M, of which over $11M came from private donors. None of that came from the federal government.

And yes, the equipment for volunteer crews comes of the government. I've seen it sitting idle in the storage sheds until it got pulled out for a volunteer work crew. It's not as if the park service has crews that are desperately underequipped because the volunteer crews took their gear. I've never seen a NPS or USFS facility that didn't have some extra hard hats and shovels sitting around somewhere, waiting for someone to use them.

snowcreek wrote:Its amazing that when an NPS trail worker tells you how things actually are you deflect and pretend you know more than me.


I am sure you did good work for the NPS. But it would be a mistake to assume that you are the only one here who has any expertise or experience--especially because you have joined this forum in the last few days and don't know much about the other people who post here. And you certainly are wrong about the funding for the Yosemite Conservancy. My father was a ranger, and while I've had only done minor trail work in Yosemite, I have spent quite a lot of time doing trail work in the surrounding national forests--much of it with volunteer crews, sometimes only with USFS employees. I will let AT tell you about his/her own career in the Sierra.
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Re: Petition To Change Back To Pre-Covid Walk-in Permit Syst

Postby snowcreek » Sat Apr 10, 2021 8:55 am

It's not as if the park service has crews that are desperately underequipped because the volunteer crews took their gear. I've never seen a NPS or USFS facility that didn't have some extra hard hats and shovels sitting around somewhere, waiting for someone to use them.

You sure? We had no extra hard hats and few shovels to go around. Our safety equipment was often outdated and dangerous. My personal hard hat was outdated for years. Ditto with everyone else. The REI trail crew however had brand new NPS supplied hard hats, gloves, glasses, and any other equipment they needed- so yes- they literrally did take govt equiptment the actual NPS trail crew could have been using.. And they used that gear for ONE day... costing the gov far more than we got back in what amounted to play time for adults
And I dont have to know who you are- its obvious from the posts you folks have little experience with trails or trail crews. I did not even go into the fact that you dont get a bear can or a permit for a hike from a not for profit. I only addressed the mistaken assumptions about trail crews.
As for a "ranger" that word has vast meaning. It could be a LEO ranger or an interp. Using the term "ranger" shows how little you know about the NPS. Its one of the easiest ways to spot someone who has little knowladge about the NPS as you learn on day one that "ranger" is a convoluted term. to any neophyte though- they are all "rangers." I doubt any of you even realized the trail crews as they are not in uniform...Perhaps if they had more public support and less confusion about who was doing the trail work the NPS would provide them with some uniforms.. and decent equipment
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Re: Petition To Change Back To Pre-Covid Walk-in Permit Syst

Postby balzaccom » Sat Apr 10, 2021 9:52 am

I've never joined an REI group--but you clearly had a very negative experience with one. Fair enough.

The crews I worked on didn't have "uniforms" either, but we knew who we were. And the gear we had was well-used... from hard hats to loppers. It was hard to miss us though. Nobody else carries that kind of gear on the trail.

My dad would have cracked up to hear you describe him as LEO...quite funny.
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Re: Petition To Change Back To Pre-Covid Walk-in Permit Syst

Postby snowcreek » Sat Apr 10, 2021 10:13 am

You dont seem to understand- there are LEO rangers, Interp rangers, backcountry rangers, climbing rangers, permit rangers etc etc etc..
Their is no one term. I have no clue what your father did. At one time there was a "ranger." but not anymore
And my beef is with the idea that NPS trail work is some how reliant on volunteers or not for profits- its not
The govt would do better to step away from these programs. The only one I kind of support is the CCC because its largely for troubled youth who need the sobriety and work experience. Thats a payoff in the longrun for society. But I do not support the not for profits continous demand for shares of money while they continue to steal jobs and and resources from the NPS. they work to put the very people they claim to support out of work. And the public gets a poor return on their investment in regards to the quality of work done. Cant tell you how many times we had to work to fix what the not for profits messed up
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